WoT on Prime episode 5 SPOILERS

[Ascendancy]

So for additional footage you haven't seen elsewhere, watch the x-ray behind the scenes episodes. Ep 5.1 is about the "look" and shows glimpses of the blood-snow, eye of the world! (like THE eye of the world) location, etc.

[Mikhail]

Watching them now. Love it. Am really impressed.

The xray bonus content episodes are beautifully animated. The murals depicting each ajah are gorgeous.

The 5.1 on the look is fantastic. Specifically, they show a color coded map showing what Earth styles the WOT nation styles are reminiscent of. I love that so much.

[Thalia]

Likewise, I hypothesize that we have seen only hints of the wolf-lore and building up of Perrin as a wolf-brother to maintain the mystery of the DR. Perrin is still in the running for that. If we emphasize too early in season 1 that he is special because he’s a wolf-guy, then the audience would rule him out as the DR. I bet we get way more wolf-world building in season 2 after (presumably) Rand is recognized as the DR at the Eye of the world. I asked manflesh about this. He knows who the DR is bc I’ve talked about it, and his response was a question: “is there something going on with perrin and the wolves?”  Yep, manflesh. There is. Stay tuned. In that argument, manflesh loves Perrin. He also thinks the wolf thing is really cool and wants to see more of it going forward. So the hook has definitely set in. I imagine if they unloaded too much too fast, the lay-watcher wouldn’t be able to keep up. He also has no idea what’s wrong with Mat, but did notice that Mat seems a little “dark”. But so far he kind of thinks Mat is just being an asshole and hasn’t caught on that he’s “infected” with something nasty. The dagger is going to be a fun twist when its revealed to be evil for the audience.

I’m glad for that perspective, thanks Asc. Elyas is rumoured to be in season 2, the reasoning for that being (like many other things) that if we saw him now he would then disappear for ages and that makes things difficult on a production level. I was starting to feel like the delay has made Perrin a bit of a non-entity, but I know that loving him and the wolves in the books (and also knowing he isn’t the dragon) clouds my feeling on that. My husband hasn’t really mentioned Perrin or the wolves (other than an “oh shit” comment in the scene before Hopper licks his leg). He hasn’t seen this episode yet though. And interestingly, he has cottoned on to Mat and has noticed the dagger, although he calls it a sword, but he thinks its possession. We watch a lot of horror movies though lol.

I liked the focus on Stepin a lot (but I also found this ep super emotional because of its content). It illustrated the bond so perfectly. But I get that some book readers will be wondering why they chose to focus on a non-main character (while skipping other book events). Thematically it worked very well for the show I thought. I wonder if as well as being the midpoint exposition, it’s also the last quiet breath before the storm. Sanderson’s favourite script was episode 6, and then we’re basically at the end. I can’t imagine 7 or 8 will slow the pace down at all.

I think Rand will have a pay-off at the end. My guess is we will get a lot more focus on Rand in ep 7. And they haven’t even released a synopsis for episode 8, so I think they plan to go out with a bang. Like you, I hope that’s what they do anyway.

It looks like there are 8 Forsaken figures to me too so unless Stepin had some missing maybe they will be condensed a little. The ones Rand fights early on though can easily be cut, and a few could probably be merged quite easily. Has anyone tried to match identities to them yet? One has a guitar!

Loial was my favorite part of this episode I think. When I first saw him in pre-season pictures, I was very apprehensive of his look. After seeing it played out, I loooooooove his look and costume! I totally didn’t see tree-man at all, but instead I saw it as “ogre”-man. In fact, Rand called him an ogre. Manflesh thought he was an ogre, even my 6 year old son thought he was an ogre (like Shrek). Which is what I always assumed Ogier to be inspired by when RJ made them up: a combo of ogre + lotr (Clearly the green man is more like the LOTR Ents). I didn’t really see a woodsy type skin texture. I just thought it was humanoid *shrug?*. I bet the moustache helped with the prosthetic, particularly around his mouth and big teeth. The droopy, moving ears would have been sooooo hard to pull off and would have had to be CGI. When I think of those ears, I just picture “baby Yoda” and feel like it would have been a copy of that. Instead, they gave him big bushy eyebrows and a big moustache. I loved the flare of his nose and his eyes. Even yes his voice is “woodsy” and Ent like, but did you watch the behind the scenes footage? The actor really sounds like that! He has such a deep baritone voice that I can just listen to all day long. Plus he’s huuuuuge! Plus he is literally just like Loial in real life: super jovial and uplifting. I am a huge fan of this Loial, which I find extremely humorous because I loathed book-Loial. He was always so embarrassingly “fantasy” (nerddom), annoying, stupid, and just felt like he was in the way. (sorry Loial fans!) Show Loial is such an improvement for me. I even love his kink-hair, which like I said before, I was very apprehensive about at first.

Oh, I agree that the ears would have been a pain, it’s just one of the things I still would have liked to see. Have you seen Sweet Tooth on netflix? His ears are a practical effect, and I was hoping for something similar.

I saw the actor playing Bottom in Midsummer Night’s Dream (it streamed while we were in lockdown, the one with Gwendolyn Christie in) and he is FANTASTIC in it. I’ve been looking forward to his portrayal of Loial ever since. No complaints about the actor at all. 

Did it sound like Jain Farstrider is a woman in the show? It sounded that way (“Jain herself”) but I wasn’t sure if that was funny phrasing around souls being reborn as any gender.

The set of the white tower interior was beautiful to me. I felt that it was purposeful that it was cold and empty. The lack of things on the wall (seriously, who is going to drill a hole into Ogier-One-Power-built 3,000 year old marble?? Not me!) I found to be a startling contrast to what I always pictured in my mind; but that picture comes from decades of RP’ing and probably not very accurate! This felt cold because the Aes Sedai are cold, serene. It felt like a place of meditation, like a monastery. The Sisters are like monks in a Tower much like monks are brothers in their monasteries. The interior design drew inspiration from very beautiful, worldly places, and I just can sit and stare at it all day.
Well, all in all, I was fond of the episode. I’m eager to move on though and see some channeling Rand action. It’s building, and I can tell the tension is coming. I look forward to seeing the Hall next episode and the Amyrlin. I look forward to everyone sneaking out of Tar Valon to go to Fal Dara and the Eye. Going to be cool to see how the girls escape getting enrolled as novices.

That’s a good point about years of RP informing how I would imagine it. I see what you mean about it being more monastery-like, and I agree it did feel that way. The concept art looked like there was more decoration, though still sparse to what I had imagined. I do like the influences and intricacy, don't get me wrong. It still felt too empty to me though, and not like people were just tucked away. I suppose when you consider the areas we saw though, it was mostly private rooms and outside the Hall (where no novice or accepted is going to linger). Hopefully next episode will make it feel a bit more alive.

I reckon behind closed doors Suian will enable Moiraine to escape with the girls somehow, perhaps it will be tied to the punishment she metes out in the Hall for Logain. Since they don’t know who the dragon is yet, it’s important all of them are taken to the Eye. The waygate will be useful for a quick exit. I hope we get some in-world explanation of where M is taking them though. I remember being confused by the Eye on my first read.

Daniel Henney is more emotive, which I like. But I do still want some reserve since it is part of the solitary nature and character of him. I like that in a ritualized format, he is ALLOWED to grieve, to give vent. It is a safe space and place for that sort of thing. And he kills it (Though the ripping the shirt open as the camera hovered overhead felt a bit melodramatic. But in a ritual context, it works.

The grief ritual was beautifully done, and made me cry. I don’t think the shirt rip was melodramatic though. Tearing at clothes is a common communication of grief in non-western cultures, as is the chest beating. I think it was just different to how we generally grieve in the west. Plus, he was symbolic for them all, literally told “relieve our grief for us”, so he’s not just expressing his own loss, but that of everyone there. It would have been his duty in that role to completely let go. Stoic doesn’t mean unfeeling, and I think seeing Lan like this serves very well for when we find out in-show who he really is and how much he has lost prior to this. Because he is reserved, and we might not see the depths of his anguish again.

The concept of these is brilliant enough and organic enough that I have to wonder if there are in fact cultures that make statues of demons and evil entities in order to drive them and their influence way. Was fantastic and a great way to show the depth of this world.

This is from memory, but I’m sure with Pazuzu (demon god) people made statuettes and amulets in his image. Keeping his image was thought to ward off his evil, but anything too big or noticeable brought his ill attention instead. Like I said that’s from memory when I wrote the character, but just based on that I imagine there must be other examples of the same. I also thought it was a great detail. Interesting book nod that Stepin called Ishy the Father of Lies since Ba’alzamon is mistaken for the DO.

Egwene was badasssss. I loved how her defiance dovetailed nicely with Nynaeve's story. Unlike you, Thal, though I wondered if they could have used a single line that connected the story she told to Rand's unsurety. It certainly did fit the idea that she was unbreakable. But that's a metaphor. She very much CAN die. Having her comment on "feeling" if Egwene died would have bee subtle enough but still vague enough that it would only be meaningful (in the context of Nynaeve's having unknowngly healed her) later on.

I think they kept it that subtle because Nynaeve hasn’t connected the dots herself. Given the context of the episode, her claim of “feeling” Eg alive might have been confusing because it sounds like the warder bond.

Only issue was the way he seemed frozen and powerless against Perrin. "Light protect me, what are you!" or some such. Come on, man. You live in a world with Trollocs and Fades and channelers. Yellow eyes is disconcerting to be sure, but that wasn't the time to be hesitant and frozen. Maybe this emphasizes how litle combat he has seen. That he is only strong and in control when they are trussed and tied up for him. How this will work out when (and if) he has to face Galad in combat is unknown.

I thought Valda was a blademaster in the books. Though like I said I think they have merged him with Anusawa (hence all the icky torture) so maybe this Valda isn’t. His reaction was one of the meh points for me, though his surprise I think highlighted the fact he really did think they were two innocent, normal kids. Remember he probably assumes Perrin just broke himself free and he can hear the commotion of the wolves outside.

The washing of Egwene reminded me of the witch trials where the accused woman was poked and prodded and examined in humiliating ways that, frankly, were also done for titilation and sexual gratification. While I am glad they didn't go GOT about it, it had that air. They singled her out while leaving Perrin dirty. Another good job making you despise the WC.

I disagree, there was nothing sexual about it, and the Whitecloaks didn’t look like they were titilated or even enjoying it. They looked disgusted. I think they washed her because being an accused channeler made her “dirty” to them (also why Perrin did not get the same treatment). It was a display of power and control, sure, but I think the core reason is that disgust for channeling and its associations with the DO. They even scraped under her nails. It made me uncomfortable to watch. Very dehumanising. 

I am bit concerned that, given his role as the Dragon, their attempts at misdirection regarding Rand will backfire. Other than his breaking down Dana's door, we've seen little to put keep rand in the running. I checked the reddit analyzing possible candidates but it hasn't been updated. I would venture a guess that Matt, Egwene and Perrin seem to be pulling ahead. Nynaeve possibly, if people think Moiraine's assumption of 20 years is inaccurate. Rand mostly existed for exposition and/or to bounce off of. And I do love Josha as Rand. But if they don't give him a bit more, it will be really odd to have him be shown as the dragon, at least to the non book reader watchers. Because it comes out of nowhere.

but I am getting ahead of myself. We may see Tam's flashback or the battle of the blood snows in the next episode. If you recall, Moiraine met Suian for the first time in the books (excluding the prequel) in The Great Hunt. It was in that chapter that you learned they had been novices and accepted together and learned of Gitara's foretelling about the Dragon during the battle. That their animosity was a ruse. It seems we will be seeing this scene in this context instead. If so, we get more context about that vision. And perhaps more about Tam. We still have a lot to do and the Eye of the World still hasnt been introduced (it was in book 1 by Baalzamon, by loial and by a dying aiel maiden through the tinkers.) So I am will be patient.

I think they have this covered. If you are worried, check the episode summary for ep 7 (there aren’t spoilers but it might tell you things you’d rather not know). My money is on blood snow and the fever dream in ep 7, but if it’s not then we do still pretty much know we’re getting it somewhere. Rafe’s reply to being asked why the fever dream was skipped was “did we?” My prediction is Rand as dragon and Rand as channeler destined to go mad is going to be a doublepunch, so they have a little bit of build up to do first. I think that’s what 6 will be, as you’ve said concerning S and M backstory and prophecy setup.

My biggest pet peeve is how clean everything is. Ok, this is Tar Valon and the WT.So the AS are obsessively clean (maybe). Then say that in a  throw away line. Everything is pristine and doesn't look lived in. I hate that I started noticing how empty and pristine everything is. It really grates as this tower and city are 1000s of years old and you are steeped in history and culture. They do a good job showing all the ruins and stuff (like when Eg and Perrin were running with Aram ad they passed some). They put the effort into that. Make it look real. Dirty. Talk to the Disney Imagineers for that kind of thing. Or watch how Lucas (who invented that look in sci fi) did it. Because thats the thing that bothers me most (small I know. but there it is.)

It didn’t feel too clean to me, but it didn’t feel fully believable either. I actually thought the inside of the inn seemed too dirty/rustic for what I imagined for Tar Valon (more bare walls lol). It is a peeve but I also try to remind myself that I’ll get used to the artistic decisions, and for the rough edges it IS a first season (and one badly affected by covid). On the whole it’s super impressive and very high quality. Sets and things will improve as the show does well and the budget amazon are willing to offload increases. Even GoT had iffy bits, and generally they were working with far smaller locations. We barely ever even saw King’s Landing.

I’m off to have a look at the bonus content. I can’t access it from my tv for some reason so I had forgotten to look today.

[Mikhail]

Yeah, I don't think I worded it well. I don't think the WC Egwene scene was titillating or designed to be. It just reminded me of the witchers examinations, at first glance. There was a feel of humiliation on her face as they roughly cleaned her, but they allowed her her modesty in covering her breasts.

It's speaks to Valdas evil that he commented on a sister channeling by this point and that he felt his men and he were safe enough treating her so brazenly. I definitely think the WC obsession with outer shows of light and cleanness is a nice contrast to their inner darkness. It's a common theme in the gospels as well- you are like a clean cup filled with all sorts of viewers.

Yes, Valda was a sword master. So yeah, it definitely leads to question as to whether he and Galad will have a similar confrontation. Book Valda would never have reacted to Perrin like that. Child Byar wasn't cowed nor was Dain Bornhald. His being merged with Asunawa as a questioner (along with Jaichim Carridin as well) works, I think.

The forsaken with a guitar is clearly Asmodean. We need him to teach Rand. Too cool to cut that. Belal (while actually quite cool) was only briefly in Book 3. The Netweaver. His plans with Liandrin and the 12 BA to capture the girls as bait for Rand was brilliant. He could be merged with Aginor or Balthamel, either of them. Aginor is better preserved in part solely because of his work as a scientist who was nearly bound for his unethical experiments and his creating shadow spawn. So Belal and Aginor merged with Aginor as the name would work.

Balthamel was mostly a nobody. Moggy was an investment advisor and shady as hell. She's one of the cooler forsaken just because of her interaction with Nynaeve. Messina, Semiraghe, graendal lanfear are the other women. Then Demandred, Ishy, Sammael, and Rahvin.

If we go for 8 (assuming he had a full set of figures) its tough to figure out how to merge them. But they need it. There was a super ugly woman. Reminded me of Graendal post resurrection.

I'm sure sets will look better and more used as they go along. But the cleanness and pristine nature of things really is the only thing. I am super impressed with all the detail work, esp after watching the bonus content.

Tearing clothes is common and I had no issues with that. It was just the way that single part was shot or framed that didn't work for me. It felt a little too staged rather than natural. The beauty of the ceremony for me in that it starts almost as a ritual, reserved and mechanical, and slowly becomes more uncontrolled and raw. It's gorgeous. Lans crying was ugly and painful and real and I loved it. Just something about the way he held his hands at his shirt felt off. But likely I am overthinking things.

I loved how Loial just rambled on and on while others spoke, as he did in the books. I think his look will not be an issue for me as they captured his character. The voice like a rumbling massive bumble bee. Love it.

[Thalia]

OH the bonus content this week is amazing! Costume and music are my fave things. THE DETAILS THE DETAILS. Gosh, there’s so much nuance in it all. I love the thought behind Nynaeve’s belt. I hope they release a proper image of that map. The music is so on point for me, that was a great glimpse behind the curtain for both the soundtrack and the in-show songs. Still impatient for translations too.

I enjoyed the origin short too. I wish they subtitled them though, the voice-over isn’t always that clear.

My memory of all the Forsaken is shaky. Could they give Aginor’s backstory to someone else? Obviously the creation of the shadowspawn is important, but he gets deaded early and his O’sangar stuff could be redistributed too? I can’t see them introducing Aginor (and Balthamel) this late just for the showdown, which means he wouldn’t even appear until we have a Black Tower. He could potentially be merged with one of the ladies too. Perhaps Semirhage? They could probably add that kind of scientific experimentation onto her interesting interpretation of being a medical professional lol.

There looks to be 4 male 4 female figurines, so it’s the male forsaken that will take the bigger pruning.

So we know they’re keeping Ishy and Asmodean. 

They won’t cut Lanfear, but I can see them potentially merging one of the other ladies into her role because she’s important but also a bit one hit wonder. Possibly she could absorb Mesaana, because all she really does is spend a lot of time at the Tower promoting the schism. Lanfear also spends some time in disguise there so logistically that could work.

I also think they’ll keep Moggy.

I could see them giving Rahvin’s Caemlyn plot to someone else (male or female), and have that person flee when Rand shows up. It’s all he does really. I’m fairly certain Morgase will just die, her sideplot is a bit pointless and it has the added benefit of adding some credibility to Gawyn’s actions. 

Be’lal is also pointless enough that his role could be merged and his interesting bits given to someone else.

One of them looks like Sammael to me. That’s three. And Demandred would be four.

Of the ladies I expect they will keep Lanfear, Moggy, Graendal and Semirhage.

At least some of that speculation is based on the fact those are the ones I remember best though, haha. I don’t know how that works in practise, or if it works with the book plot. I could never keep track of where they all supposedly were at any one time. I haven't tried to match them up to the figurine's images either.

If the 8 is wrong, I still think they'll prune Aginor and Balthamel. O'sangar and Aran'gar could just be high ranking DFs.

CK, I see what you mean about the similarities between the Whitecloaks and witchfinders. Burning the Yellow was reminiscent too. I thought you meant the scene was headed into gratuitous GoT territory.

Book-Valda probably wouldn’t have put the two kids in that situation in the first place, though I don’t suppose he would have had any qualms handing them over to a questioner. Show-Valda is the most obviously evil character we have so far, it seems quite apparent he’s doing it for his own pleasure. The “what makes you think I keep my oaths” line was especially sinister, and surprised me. Maybe the Galad fight will be given over to another character (since Valda is a questioner and not Lord Captain). Though I suppose we don’t know for sure that we will have a Galad yet.

He knew she wasn’t Aes Sedai because she didn’t have a ring as well, and he must realise she’s far too young anyway since he’s encountered and killed so many at this point. He was definitely confident she was no threat.

[Mikhail]

Love the idea of semi merging with Aginor. The whole Dr Mengele thing fits too nicely. And it would be in character.

And Mesaana and Lanfear could work. Then she's not just the crazy ex but the AS who was a researcher at the Colum Daan (and drilled into the bore) and also a professor of sorts. She could take up Mesaanas chores and still be cray cray.

Demandred and Ishy stay. Ishy ciz he's been mentioned and Demmy cuz the sharans. They can't cut shara now as it is part of the end game. But they could (and should) make that much better.

Rahvin s stuff can be given to others but I seem to recall Morgase was cast when Elayne was. Maybe Sammael and Rahvin get merged since they both took over nations.

So...(the slash means take elements from the secondary name)
1- ishamael
2- semi/aginor
3- lanfear/mesaana
4- asmodean
5- graendal
6- rahvin/sammael or vice versa
7- demandred
8- moggy/belal

Moggy has to stay because nynaeve repeatedly confronting her is part of the character. Maybe she sets a trap for Rand like belal did. It works. She's crafty.

That gives you 8 forsaken and gets rid of the useless ones or the ones who are one offs.

[Thalia]

I don't remember a Morgase cast, but I just mean she will die at some point when Rand goes to confront Rahvin rather than escaping with Tallanvor. She'd still be in the show. I just think her plot after that was so pointless I could see them cutting it. Her death would have more meaning. It always infuriated me that Gawyn did what he did thinking Rand killed her, when we knew she was alive.

A Sammael and Rahvin merge was my first thought, but they're very different personalities. Sammael is not a seducer which was Rahvin's whole MO. Though the only reason I think they're keeping Sammael is because it looks like he has a figurine. Does it look like there's a handsome one? Graendal might choose to seduce a monarch for funsies I guess. I don't know if that fits with plot though, what was she supposed to be doing at that point? I suppose it doesn't matter if Morgase is a complete zombie if they did kill her off, since Graendal's tactics would probably be a little, uh, different.

Personally I would rather Rahvin and Sammael stayed separate, they are the only ones I think suffer from being pruned because they don't fit easily into any of the other forsaken characters imo.

They have to keep Moggy too because of all the info she gives the girls. She's essentially their Asmodean, but none of the other lady Forsaken have the right personality for that kinda capture and sullen cooperation.

[Mikhail]

A reddit fan made a super cut of all the forsaken images. There are 8 and 3 appear male and 5 female.

https://preview.redd.it/n7v8asmj2j381.jp...c8e4699185

Ishamael was pointed out by Steppins actions and had some od looking lion like face.

There is are two women with long necks on either end, one with a short hair cut and one with long hair and a lion like face. For some reason the latter makes me think of Semiraghe tho that's just impression.

The other woman might be graendal or moggy. The other woman with the long flowing hair and and diamond at center makes me think of Lanfear. That leaves one more who could be either graendal or moggy. She's kind of squat and homely. Not that these need to match physical descriptions, of course. But Graendal being beautiful and voluptuous and a hedonist lends itself to the ugly one being moggy.

There is another female with a triangular head.

I saw the guitar so we can assume Asmodean. That leaves the short squat guy and the guy with a staff. Shirt guy hints at Sammael. Staff guy would have to be demmy.

Interesting make up in that it appears that the forsaken aren't even balanced by gender. But I could be characterizing one of them.wrongly.

Edit: the reddit consensus is 4 male and 4 female. I think that is possible. The ugly woman could be a man. Someone suggested demmy and Sammy could be merged because they both have "a hate boner" for the dragon.

I about died laughing.

[Thalia]

Hahaha XD Actually I was also wondering if Sammael and Demanded made a better merge. For the same reason, though I wouldn't have phrased it quite that way lol. Rahvin could also just die then. The Light has to get some big wins along the way and that one would be relatively early on.

Do you have another link, that one doesnt work for me.

[Mikhail]

Hahaha XD Actually I was also wondering if Sammael and Demanded made a better merge. For the same reason, though I wouldn't have phrased it quite that way lol. Rahvin could also just die then. The Light has to get some big wins along the way and that one would be relatively early on.

Do you have another link, that one doesnt work for me.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WoTshow/comment...urce=share