WOT on Prime Episode 8 - SPOILERS

[Ascendancy]

I appreciate your sharing, Asc, especially those very personal memories. It was wonderful.

Thanks. 

Now that I think about it. I have a feeling that I have a bias toward liking the show because it is a connection to my brother. If I were to feel any differently, it would be like tainting the otherwise golden memories of my brother and me. (Now I'm about to cry thinking about it). 

I have to love the show. Have to. Because if I don't, that's another loss of him that I can't internalize.

[Mikhail]

I can completely appreciate that. And have no desire to ruin an experience for anyone else. Enjoyment is subjective. Arguing about art and whether it is good or bad is a losing game.

The stories that matter to us often are those that we share with others. Are part of that bonding. Being able to honor that experience in a new way is not trivial.

I was never predisposed to dislike the show. I am not a book purist. And I don't say I dislike it even now. But my feelings about the season over all have coalesced and they aren't what I wanted it to be. I don't share Rafe's vision or interpretation of RJs themes and spirit of the show.

I'm sure I'll watch season 2. Maybe my stomach will have settled by then. But it may just be that I'm one of the hard-core fans this series doesn't work for.

But I am very happy you can honor and share the books with your Brother. I didn't know him well but I know he was good to you and important to you. That matters.

[Thalia]

I suppose that's something. It's a good explanation, all considered. Rafe should get you to write some of these. It wouldn't take much for these things to be smoothed out. Still don't like the seemingly inconsistent rules and it wouldn't be hard fix things.

Ha, I'd love to. Give me a call, Rafe! XD

I'm sure the reality of a writer's room is pretty fraught though. There is lots to juggle including commitments and stipulations we know nothing about. 

We are getting a simplified view of it but I think the stuff is all there in the show to figure out (mostly), though I do think they dropped the ball in a few places. There's several times they've had to "explain" things on social media, and the explanations are okay but it should be clear enough in the show not to need an explanation in the first place.

Some of it may be teething issues. This is also where I think playing with unreliable narrators (and Aes Sedai word games in particular) is a huge challenge when it comes to the world building. Moiraine has lots of reasons to hold back, and she does frequently. Practically everything we hear is not the full truth because she has a motive and intention for what she reveals, but she's also our main vehicle for learning about the one power and the world. Mat being healed of his connection to the dagger and her saying she couldn't teach Rand channeling are two cases in point. Neither of the things she says there are the entire truth, and in both cases the conclusion she wants Rand to draw is the conclusion the audience draws as well. It looks like a deviation but potentially neither are. It's Moiraine not giving Rand the full picture because she needs his trust more than she needs him knowledgeable. 

Though we're warned several times that Aes Sedai don't tell the truth you hear, we are not used to our "Gandalf" lying by omission.

This is way frustrating for book readers. We know there will be some lore changes, so we are analysing everything with that lens in mind. We know why Moiriane cannot teach saidin really, but because she doesn't say it we wonder if it's no longer a fact of the world. We forget that she has every reason to need Rand's trust right now, to be an infallible leader figure, right up until the point she knows she may have to slit Rand's throat.

For everyone else it's no big deal, because they can just take it at face value and learn more when the world and lore inevitably expands. Which it will.

Those are really insightful comments Asc, and I think you are right on the money. We're naturally bringing knowledge from a whole series of books, the companion, and numerous RJ interviews and comparing it to 8 hours of television intended for an unfamiliar audience. Some things will have to be simplified and stay simplified. And some things they will build our understanding of slowly over time and subsequent seasons, like the one power and its mechanics (hopefully).

There's only been 3 things that have really bugged me. The waygate being opened with saidar (clearly down to Harris leaving, so forgiven), Min's vision of Rand being clear about who and where he was AND Moiriane knowing about it (per previous post, if Moiraine does suspect a great deal more than she "knows" then this also makes sense), and women not being able to sense women channelers in the same way not being revealed until episode 6 (lore changes are fine but tell us early please!). All of those have possible explanations, but all tripped me up while watching too, and tripping up is falling out of the world and story. I can’t even be sure my chosen interpretations are the correct ones *shrugs*

In every other aspect I fall under the casual fan category. The less I am inclined towards "but in the books" the more I enjoy it. Watching with a non-book reader helps immensely.

My husband still believes Ishy is the DO. Although I've seen articles calling him Ishamael I don't think we've heard him called that in the show so I haven't told him otherwise. He thinks he just ran away and is not dead, and that Moiraine was tricked and is a bit dumb XD

Oh Asc, good call on the Min vision baby being Joiya. She looked smaller in the vision than in the dreamshard but it makes a ton of sense.

It would also mean that we saw every vision shown (not the ones verbalised) come true -- apart from Perrin's wolf out. Perhaps that's another indication his role was reduced to replace Mat's discovery of Fain, the dagger, and the horn. Since it's a major part of his character it's certainly something that can be deferred. When Perrin asked how to help my husband immediately chimed in "the wolves are going to come" (before pondering a bit more and adding: knowing his luck he can only channel ONE wolf). It does feel a little like setup they didn't follow through on. Maybe that's why people were disappointed. In short I completely agree with your ruminations Asc, both about why Perrin probably got the scene he did, and how inexplicably large the ripple effects of Harris and covid really were.

Part of me wishes they would be a bit more open/honest about the challenges involved with that, but I suspect if they did it would rip them wide open for people accusing them of making “excuses” so I guess just owning it works out better for them.

Ooooh, so I had another thought about Lews and the cold open scene. I think the whole point of that scene was that we saw his motivation was his child (especially that), and that seeing the AoL landscape at its futuristic height was a visually important contrast to current day randland. If there had been desperation, it wouldn't have paralleled Rand's climax decision so well. If there had been war, it would have diluted the child being the crux of the connection between both scenes.

I was also thinking about how Dana said Ishamael was the last one to bring the dragon to the DO. I don't remember that in the books (could be wrong lol)

So here's a hypothetical possibility. 

At the point of the cold open the bore has been discovered. Lews wants to act. There's political unrest but no real desperation, the DO's touch has not really permeated, they have time to decide how to handle it. They may not even know how much of a danger it is yet (the covid parallels: yikes).

We see that Ishy and Lews had a confrontation at the Eye (in as much as we see Lews appear to seize saidin and Ishy is present). What if the Eye is actually the AoL Hall of Servants? It looks a lot like the WT hall in design really. In the books we know Lews shamed Ishy there at some point, and it was also where Ishy declared his new allegiance prior to the war of power. What if the flashes we see there are the beginning of all that and not the sealing like we're led to believe (not the last battle if you will, but the first *wink*).

The Forsaken had to have risen to power before the sealing -- for them to have the kind of mythos we see Stepin apply, that's show-fact. And apparently Ishy did at some point deliver the dragon to the DO (or certainly darkfriends believe this to be the case). This suggests the possibility that Ishy will play a bigger part in Lews' downfall. Maybe they will blend in Demandred? Up the rivalry a little?

I wonder if the change here is just that Lews wanted to do the right thing before it was a problem that needed fixing. That Ishy played a greater part in either manipulating Lews or creating the circumstance in which Lews was forced to act. And that ultimately if the Aes Sedai had acted and worked together quickly, none of it would have happened. For Ishy to have survived myth as the dark one he must have been integral to whatever exactly happened.

Lews deciding to cage the DO and heading to the Eye to do it (and the DO being Ishy) is the simplistic version. I'd be very surprised if it turns out to be the full "truth."

I think the timeline will be way condensed down, but I do think we will get more context, especially once we find out more about the Forsaken and Lews takes up permanent residence in Rand's head. I'm curious to find out more.

Thanks. 

Now that I think about it. I have a feeling that I have a bias toward liking the show because it is a connection to my brother. If I were to feel any differently, it would be like tainting the otherwise golden memories of my brother and me. (Now I'm about to cry thinking about it). 

I have to love the show. Have to. Because if I don't, that's another loss of him that I can't internalize.

Oh Asc *squishes*

I really feel this. Talking about wot after the teaser trailer was the last conversation I ever had with my dad. He told me he was going to binge it in blocks, then watch it all over again after Christmas. Didn't usually get excited about that sort of thing. The show will always be tied up with my memory of his loss. After the second trailer dropped, it hit me so hard I wasn't sure I'd be able to watch the show at all.

I was fully prepared to hate it. If it was a total shit show, at least my dad wasn't here to be disappointed by it rather that it being an experience we missed out on together. When we finished it yesterday my husband asked me what I thought he would have made of it, and the truth is I don't really know, but watching the show has been a connection to him anyway. I think that's part of why episode 5 really struck and stayed with me. The themes of love and grief felt entirely personal.

It might be rooted in some bias but there is plenty about the show to love. They got a lot of things right, and it still has plenty of growing to do.

A lot of the overall complaint I have seen is trollish, knee-jerk, or actively picking at reasons to hate it (to be clear CK, not talking about you here; I'm also not talking about critical assessment or even people deciding it just doesn't work for them). There's a shit ton of vitriol out there. And when you have an emotional connection to something, that's hard to stomach.

The way Rafe decided to approach and adapt it was always going to be a gamble (the quote in Asc's post makes a ton of sense). I definitely fall into the intended appeal category and in my opinion, the show took a couple of episodes to hit stride, was very strong in the middle, and then was majorly fucked over by covid and the loss of a primary character. They were left chasing their tails after that and we're lucky we got a product at all in the end. I think they did an excellent job with the challenges they had but it still makes me wish we could get a glimpse of the original plan. It certainly wasn't enough to dampen my enjoyment though. I'm looking forward to more.

[Marcus DuBois]

Damn. I get it. I get how you feel. That emotional connection and bonding is powerful. And I never want to diminish that for anyone.

I am so very happy you have these memories. That you can imagine your father or your brother with you watching the show. It's like they are with you sharing something special. And that is just so beautiful. I love it.

You both are awesome.

[Thalia]

I will take the awesome, bwahaha

So I read somewhere that there were no melee battles in 8 because of covid restrictions, and also that Lan was supposed to fight at the gap. When they couldn't film the fight scenes they needed another reason for him to be delayed following Moiriane, and that was why we got the "Moiraine's tell" thing. I haven't seen a source though so it may be speculation. I'm fairly sure the covid restriction thing was why the battle was so hands off though (same with Fain). I liked Nyn and Lan's scene a lot, but you can see how much more impactful it would have been had that been a goodbye as he was about to leave for battle with the intention of cutting through and going after Moiraine. And it didn't occur to me while watching but it does seem odd that Lan wouldn't ride with Shienar.

I'm fairly sure Agelmar isn't dead. My money is on his armour saving him. He doesn't look dead in his last scene, just defiant.

I don't have a screenshot but the crack in the seal has 8 branches and isn't that a fantastic detail? If you count the cracks that branch off from other cracks, there are actually 13! Which may not be intention but if it is *chef's kiss*

Some eagle-eyed person also noted that Ishy has black snakey rope like chains around his feet when he's standing on the seal.

I speculated whether the Eye was actually the AoL Hall of Servants (no real reason other than it resembles the WT hall). What if DFs scoured it from history because it's proof Ishy is Forsaken/a man/an Aes Sedai and not the DO? I can't see them cutting Shayol ghul or the Eye actually being the prison.

[Ascendancy]

I will take the awesome, bwahaha

So I read somewhere that there were no melee battles in 8 because of covid restrictions, and also that Lan was supposed to fight at the gap. When they couldn't film the fight scenes they needed another reason for him to be delayed following Moiriane, and that was why we got the "Moiraine's tell" thing. I haven't seen a source though so it may be speculation. I'm fairly sure the covid restriction thing was why the battle was so hands off though (same with Fain). I liked Nyn and Lan's scene a lot, but you can see how much more impactful it would have been had that been a goodbye as he was about to leave for battle with the intention of cutting through and going after Moiraine. And it didn't occur to me while watching but it does seem odd that Lan wouldn't ride with Shienar.

I'm fairly sure Agelmar isn't dead. My money is on his armour saving him. He doesn't look dead in his last scene, just defiant.

I don't have a screenshot but the crack in the seal has 8 branches and isn't that a fantastic detail? If you count the cracks that branch off from other cracks, there are actually 13! Which may not be intention but if it is *chef's kiss*

Some eagle-eyed person also noted that Ishy has black snakey rope like chains around his feet when he's standing on the seal.

I speculated whether the Eye was actually the AoL Hall of Servants (no real reason other than it resembles the WT hall). What if DFs scoured it from history because it's proof Ishy is Forsaken/a man/an Aes Sedai and not the DO? I can't see them cutting Shayol ghul or the Eye actually being the prison.

The Covid thing and no melee fighting is exactly the kind of thing I was trying to describe about impacts to the show we can't even fathom. 

I don't think Agelmar is dead. He didn't look dead or even wounded plus all that speech about his insistence on using his own armor. 

I counted the cracks too and there's definitely 8 off the main hub. I couldn't find the 13, but great eye!

I also found the chains on Ishy's feet which could either be his chains to the prison of the DO and he's not fully freed yet or those are those "links" that connect him to the DO that protects him from the taint. I can't remember what they were called. But it's about at min 41 where there's an overhead shot of Rand channeling at Ishy looking down on them both. 

Ishy not fighting back always struck me as important. He definitely manipulated Rand into doing what he wanted. He just stands there with his hands kind of open like he's accepting whatever comes at him like he wants it. I'm pretty sure that all that was to have Rand free the Forsaken and break the 1st seal.

[Thalia]

I also found the chains on Ishy's feet which could either be his chains to the prison of the DO and he's not fully freed yet or those are those "links" that connect him to the DO that protects him from the taint. I can't remember what they were called. But it's about at min 41 where there's an overhead shot of Rand channeling at Ishy looking down on them both. 

Ishy not fighting back always struck me as important. He definitely manipulated Rand into doing what he wanted. He just stands there with his hands kind of open like he's accepting whatever comes at him like he wants it. I'm pretty sure that all that was to have Rand free the Forsaken and break the 1st seal.

Oh, good shout on the shadow chains being his link to the DO.

Agree Ishy had plenty of time to react if he'd wanted to. Even his "oh no, what are you doing" was completely lacklustre. We see how quickly and efficiently he shields Moiraine, it's effortless. I can't wait for more Forsaken!

[Ascendancy]

An eagle-eye'd attention to detail fan was doing a re-read of the series and found this information about using the OP to open way gates. They posted this in a fan page on facebook and I thought I would share below. I completely forgot this was in the books.

Currently on a re-read of book 4 and without giving away spoilers, Loial mentions that as the avendasora leaf has been removed from a certain waygate the only way to open it now is with an Aes Sedai or an Ogier Elder. So I guess Moiraine opening the waygate wasn’t entirely wrong, and then later we did see Padan again with an Avendesora leaf, so perhaps that waygate had no leaf, which is why Moiraine opened it?

Book 4, ch 53

[Thalia]

That's a good catch.

But I think Moiraine channeling open the gate is entirely a retcon to explain why they can't just open the gate again for Mat, and to reasonably explain why the rest of the EF5 has to leave him behind. I don't think they intended the leaf to be missing (though they may well have that as part of their explanation).

I rewatched that ep to see if you could tell exactly where the edits were. The footage of the group behind Moiraine when she channels isn't even moving footage, it's a still (their clothes aren't even moving in the wind). I strongly suspect they filmed it opening with the leaf in the first instance and had to change it when Harris didn't return. When Moiraine strides up to the gate it even looks like she holds something up in her hand to me.

We never see Fain with the leaf in the show, there is just an image in the BTS stuff. I think the scene where Loial was in the WT was originally longer and explained more about the ways and how they were opened, but they cut it when they had to change how the gate was opened in that ep. Same reason they cut Fain and the leaf. No point confusing things for the viewer at this point. We'll likely get the avendesora and some kind of explanation later when they travel the ways again.

[Ascendancy]

I agree that it wasn't the original plan but like the quote-author said, it means it's not wrong to open it by channeling and the writers didn't just make things up. They were trying to do right by the books in that instance.