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+--- Thread: WOT on Prime Episode 8 - SPOILERS (/thread-1365.html)
WOT on Prime Episode 8 - SPOILERS - Ascendancy - 12-24-2021
Spoilers for Episode 8
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I'm mostly still processing, but thought I'd lay out some initial thoughts.
Overall, I really enjoyed it. There were times when I was smacking the couch and cheering. When I saw the "3000 years ago" I squealed. I really, really liked seeing the AoL. I was too engrossed to really process what the Latra and LTT said to each other, but the scene was beautiful. LTT just seemed like a normal guy. The aesthetic was really beautiful. The formality between the two of them, even as they disagreed, was really noticeable. It felt civilized and like from another age (pun intended). And the clothing. I am really loving the clothing of the AoL style. It felt so futuristic and modern yet not like current Earth either.
I really enjoyed the architecture of the wall blocking the Gap. Those arrow slits with crossbow bolts flying out of them was sick. When the trollocs climbed the walls, all I had in my head with the climb of zombies in World War Z. I thought it was a pretty clever way for the trollocs to get over the wall. Lord Agelmar was a favorite of mine, when he gave the speech to his sister about buying time for the other cities, it was very moving. I really enjoyed that scene.
The circle and the women burning out was incredible. I never ever got the kind of high stakes from the books about the dangers of burning out. Showing this was awesome. The burning from inside to crispy crisps was scary and awesome at the same time. Amalisa talking about the beauty and incredible senses that came with that amount of power was a great Easter egg to the lure, addiction, and intensity of the power.
The Blight vines and whatnot was creepy and really showed what the infestation of the Blight is like. I really liked seeing the bodies taken over by the growth and how the plants were starting to cover Rand's hand as he slept. That was the kind of horror movie stuff I like. Could have used more with critters and monsters, but I understand there is only so many minutes and only so many CGI-dollars. And isn't that the rub, we can always use more.
Ishamael. Ishamael Ishamael.
I've a huge villain crush on this Ishamael. The swagger and confidence and power. That little laugh at Moiriane when he shielded her. I was pretty apprehensive at first when I saw the casting, but putting the package together, it was great.
The Eye aesthetic was really interesting adaptation. Afterward, I told manflesh about the Book-Eye and he agreed the show made the right choice in changing it. In his words, the book-eye sounded "cheesy". Rand's decision about "what about what she wants" was a great epiphany.
Rosamund's performance at the end was outstanding. She is great as Moiraine. I can absolutely see her at the end, the very end of book 14 and stroking Rand's hair after the showdown with the DO and saying "well done, Rand. well done."
RE: WOT on Prime Episode 8 - SPOILERS - Thalia - 12-24-2021
Well fuck. That’s where all the budget went then!
Mostly I just thoroughly enjoyed it. I squee’d A LOT. I wasn’t bothered by the changes. Kinda loved that the Eye was the location of the original 3d trailer in fact. Not sure the pacing was always on point, it felt a little slow to begin with (the E5 left behind in Fal Dara flailed quite a bit before deciding what the hell to do with themselves, and Rand & Moiraine’s journey through the Blight was a little easy/boring), but that’s being nitpicky I think.
LOVED our glimpse of the AoL (though not so keen on the costumes personally) and that they translated the entire scene into old tongue. I’ve never been that keen on the White Tower’s design, it looks like it’s a work in construction to me, literally surrounded by scaffolding, but from the AoL landscape I thought you could clearly see what the Aes Sedai after the breaking had tried to emulate. So in a design sense it totally makes sense, even if it’s not as flowy and pretty as the one in my head.
LAN SAID THE LINES!!
Was Amalisa wearing her father’s armour? If she was, that was a nice touch. As was one of the channeling women being the Malkier lady from the family Lan visited.
My biggest quibble was Nynaeve being healed by Egwene after being burned out and apparently quite dead, which I just found a meh insertion purely for tension (not sure how Nynaeve actually protected her either?), but other than that the whole linking scene was intense and amazing. Likewise enjoyed Amalisa talking about the beauty in the moment it killed her. And the exploding trollocs, oh my!
Who is in charge of Fal Dara now?
I know the Aes Sedai are thin in number and Shienar never asked for aid, but seriously, WHERE WERE THE GREEN AJAH. I know it wouldn’t have worked for the plot, plus they were supposed to stay out of politics, but you’d think they’d have some kinda borderland presence.
Why oh why did Ishy look ready for a night at the opera? XD The DJ type combo was odd, though I guess it helped make it clear he’s dressed from another time for anyone paying attention; his outfit was clearly supposed to be reminiscent of the clothes LTT and Latra were wearing. Interesting that they didn’t reveal who he actually is yet. Loved the little smile at the end, once he’s managed to trick Rand into breaking the first seal.
Is Moiraine stilled or shielded? Presumably the latter if the bond still exists but is just masked? I assume Lan would be able to tell the difference.
Found it bizarre that Ishy used subtle hand motions to channel after Valda saying they were an Aes Sedai crutch though.
Fain has the dagger! They did a good job of the re-edit on Mat in this episode imo, though I have a feeling people are going to HATE the inference that he’s turned to the shadow. I also thought the payoff was quite nice for Perrin’s hammer/axe thing during his confrontation with Padan Fain, especially the reference back to the way of the leaf and Perrin’s frustration with doing nothing (and yet still not being able to attack Fain in the moment).
The Seanchan look insane. Love what they’ve done with damane/sul’dam (the damane look terrifying 0.0). I was pretty sure we’d see the ships because imdb has had “little girl on western shore” as a credit for ep 8. That we saw more did not disappoint!
We never saw Egwene in the coloured pool, which is weird since they used it in so much promo. I wonder if it was something cut because of having to adjust things to explain Mat’s absence?
RE: WOT on Prime Episode 8 - SPOILERS - Ascendancy - 12-24-2021
I noticed Ishy using the hand gesture also. It was almost exactly the same kind of thing Logain did.
1. I think that they have to have some way to show on screen that someone is channeling. Rand just standing there holding the squat sa'angreal figure (yay!) didn't have hand movements, but I interpret it as being a way to show channeling.
2. The Aes Sedai movements are more than finger quirks. They're grand, large motions of the arms and body. Together, that demonstrates a) the crutch and b) the difference between men and women channeling.
Women embrace saidar and use the large motions.
Men seize Saidin and have minor/minimal movement.
Seems like a balance to me.
The smile at the end of Ishy tricking Rand into breaking the seal was spot on cool, and one reason that I loved him.
Yes, I agree the pacing felt a little off. But I totally don't care. It's the first season of a brand new show. The pilot and first season of all the great shows go through the same thing. It's growing pains. I also think that the success of this season is PIVOTAL to approving an increased budget, resources, and investment in season 2 and beyond.
That they pulled off this season with a pandemic, reshoots, losing Mat, and everything else, I'm just in awe.
Can you imagine how hard it was for those actors and writers and everyone to create entire scene's worth of dialogue out of the old tongue. I was speechless.
Edit to add: I think Moiraine is shielded. When someone is stilled, they can't sense the OP at all.
RE: WOT on Prime Episode 8 - SPOILERS - Thalia - 12-24-2021
I like the visual difference between male/female movements of channeling, and I agree it helps show a balance. I just don’t think an AoL Forsaken should use them if they are considered a “crutch” by modern Aes Sedai. At this point the way the flows move around the person shows who is channeling well enough (in most situations anyway). But it’s a totally minor thing. It'll be interesting to see how the female forsaken do it.
Very much agree about it being a 1st season, and one that had a hell of a lot of pretty unprecedented challenges. Growing pains is a good way to put it.
Ah, good point about Moiraine. Thanks.
I wonder how many people actually remember her packing up the sa'angreal in the opening scene. Weird why they didn't draw attention to it prior to then (like when she spoke with Suian). They probably could have set that up a little better.
I also totally can't decide how much Moiraine actually knew or suspected about who the dragon was.
RE: WOT on Prime Episode 8 - SPOILERS - Mikhail - 12-24-2021
I am still processing but I pretty much disliked a lot of it. Which I won't go into too much detail about (as the more I think about the whole series, it's pacing, and this particular episode, it seems to wax and wane. Overall, I felt hugely disappointed and mostly"meh". Little pieces of lame dialog still come to me and make me cringe. Perrin...what a waste of a character....nynaeve speechifying as she's being burned out. )
Regarding the AoL, the timing and situation make no sense. The "fight" between Latrae and LTT was at the height of of war of power. The bore had been drilled, shadowspawn had been released, cities had been burned out by balefire, numerous AS had gone over to the shadow, and the forces of light were on the ropes.
The bore was widening and how to deal with that was the issue. 2 plans came to the fore: seal up the bore using the power or using the newly built choedan Kal to erect a barrier to buy time.
It was chaos and desperate and both sides became less and less reasonable. There was fear and terror and both sides accused the other side of sabotage. No female AS of any strength were willing to go along with LTTs plan and soon, even female AS who weren't strong enough vowed to oppose them. This was the Fateful Concord. Rj described it as one side paralyzed by fear at the approaching Boulder rolling downhill.
Hot-headed young men on LTTs side exacerbated the situation and called themselves the companions.
The plan of Latrae seemed hopeless as the choedan Kal access keys were in territory the shadow took over. The shadow was on a down hill roll, taking more and more and it was near the end. Still, the women refused to work with the men even now that their plan was in shambles.
In the end, LTT decided to act when intelligence told that all the forsaken were at shayol Gul for a meeting. If they acted they could possibly take out the top level of the shadow in one fell swoop.
We all know what happened. And the women not partaking ended up being a good thing as saidar would have been tainted as well. But it bought 3000 years of peace.
A terrible price and none of the options were great. But not acting was worse
And the next 3000 years had their own imbalance as a result. It took Rand and Egwene primarily working through their differences and truly talking and listening to do it right
This...this was none of that. This was no war (the AoL looked great and futuristic). There was no urgency. There was no desperation.
This was one man deciding to "make the world better", whatever the fuck that meant, by sealing up the DO. And Latrae saying it was arrogant and he couldn't change humanity or free will or whatever. So....was he unleashed? Had the bore been made? If so, it didn't seem to be a bad thing or anything to worry about.
My gut feeling was that LTT was trying to kill the DO and end evil the way Rand wanted to do in AMOL. And that doing so takes away the choice of evil.
So was LTTs stupid and prideful attempt to remake humanity why the bore occurred and what broke the world?
Bah, so cliche. Such a stereotype. Stupid male arrogance overreaching in the face of wise female acceptance and wisdonm. No nuance. No terror. It wouldn't have taken much to show a ruined crib, LTT and Latrae dirty and angry and fearful as they argue about the best way to end things once and for all. To show the city, glimpses of futurism amidst destruction. Feel the war of power and the desperation on both sides. That both sides were good people making opposes decisions.
Nah. Let's just make it arrogance and hubris that (evidently) caused everything including the bore. Because it sure doesn't look like a war is going on. No one acts like a war is going on.
I've slept on it. And nope. Just hugely disappointed. I'm trying to parse the good things and they feel so far in between.
I have never minded changes because I know they are needed. As long as the characters and the spirit of the story are the same, I don't mind. But this betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the theme.
There were other things like moiraine CANT teach Rand how to channel, a lame battle with CGI that looked like early 2000s video game cut scenes, why Lan can't be with Nynaeve (didn't 3xplain why that didn't work- anymore than Anakin and Padme couldn't be together.)
I'm not trying to nitpick. I've tried to like this. I went in excited and ready to be blown away. I was expecting a prologue set in the AOL and was happy I was right. And there are things I do like of the series. But from 1 to 10, this gets a 4. And as a finale, it failed for me.
I probably should bow out since I don't want to ruin it for others. Because my irritation hasn't gone way.
RE: WOT on Prime Episode 8 - SPOILERS - Jay Carpenter - 12-24-2021
Posting from phone so this is short.
The Ever Victorious Fucking Army was terrifying. The helmets on the soldiers flanking the Sul’dam is future costume goals. I have to have a replica of one of those helmets. The tidal wave in what I hope is around Falme or Bandar Eban was epic. Did you see the mouth pieces over the damane and their collars were all kinds of horrible and awesome.
Breaking the seal and cuendillar.
The dripping water in the Eye.
Trying to turn Rand to serve the shadow by offering everything he wants.
Finally a comment about the heron-mark sword.
Poor foolish Rand thinking he’s killed the dark one. *pat pat
RE: WOT on Prime Episode 8 - SPOILERS - Thalia - 12-24-2021
CK you're allowed to not like things, and you're among friends, so please don't be apologetic for an opinion.
I think we saw a teeny tiny snippet of the AoL and not necessarily enough context to say for certain what may or may not have been changed for the show. After all, all we actually saw was a very brief discussion between two characters. The bore, the collam daan, the war of power, the rise of the Forsaken, the choedan khal -- that's a hell of a lot of context to squish in a scant few minutes of a cold open, and with a shit ton of made up terms to boot. The fact Latra describes herself as overwhelmed (and imperfect
) suggests there may be some missing context here. On the surface it does seem like what you said though; a decision made freely, not one made up against a wall.For all we know, LTT didn't act how he wanted to then, the war of power and rise of the Forsaken went on to happen, and the rest played out in a similar fashion to the books. Latra wasn't Tamyrlin either so they've changed the power dynamic and that might explain why this conversation happens early and in civilised fashion. In the books she rises in prominence through her opposing Lews. Here, she's in a position of major power already. It sounds like he made a proposal and was denied. At this stage, we really don't know exactly what happens next, or how, we just know the world does indeed break via his actions.
But that's major (and unsupported) conjecture on my part, so let's just look at what we do know in the show. Setting aside gender stuff for a moment (and what happens in the books), he's the dragon and apparently has been presented with an opportunity to kill the DO once and for all. He's eager to take the shot. Wouldn't you be? ... And, uh, more importantly doesn't that kinda sound like a certain conversation between two very definitely female Aes Sedai we just heard? At least LTT was trained and competent and had his 100 companions. Moiraine and Suian just wanted to yeet a bunch of village kids into the Eye and hope for the best.
LTT's motivations clearly stemmed from his kid, which is a very human thing and not "male arrogance" at all imo. That seemed very relevant to me; it gave important (show) context. I thought it was very interesting he had a meeting with the Tamrylin in his nursery of all places, and that they made sure we understood that's what it was. I mean, that's stereotypical "women's space" for a start. The guy seemed super likeable, not just arrogant. Over confident in his title? Sure, but no more or less than Latra asserting that she'd be left to pick up the pieces of his pride. She's only right in this situation because we know what happens next. Otherwise, that was an equally arrogant thing to say. We absolutely do see two good people here who both believe they are making good decisions, the only thing we don't have is the urgency of a war backdrop. It's only a "male arrogance v female wisdom" scenario if you let it be.
I think it's important to remember that history is told by those who survive, and in this case that's the female Aes Sedai. Their opinions are prejudice not facts. Labelling LTT's actions as arrogance was one of Moiraine's very first lines, followed shortly by Liandrin's monologue about male filth. The viewer is conditioned to the same view right from the off. But those are flawed character opinions. Logain was presented as a messiah not a horror, despite what we are consistently told about male channelers. To be honest I think we've seen plenty to show how flawed the Tower is, and it really doesn't showcase "wise female acceptance and wisdom" either imo. Logain's gentling was a violation akin to rape. They had no right to do that to him.
Re: Moiraine not clarifying why she can't teach Rand to channel, I noticed that too. But she didn't lie. She says she can't and then says he will get more and more mad the more he touches the power. Both those things are true, and it sounds like she gave a reason "why" she can't teach him ... but actually those are just two statements. We haven't even gotten to the distinction between saidin and saidar in the show yet. And if I were her, with a dragon who literally knows nothing about how to channel and who is following me because he believes I have a plan (and my plan is shaky at best, lets be honest), I probably wouldn't admit that I can't teach him either. Talk about killing his hope and confidence. So she tells him the story about channeling through pain instead. It's the best she can do to help.
There's been several things in the show which have very much played on unreliable narrator. Aes Sedai misdirection, I think, is in particular responsible for this because our assumptions are rarely corrected.
Now we've seen the entire first season, I think many of the changes are because they are adapting the series as a whole, not book by book (or sequential plot by sequential plot). I think they are adapting things to fit overall themes in ways that sometimes just feels like major deviation, and sometimes because they're exploring them in ways Jordan didn't. It might be we don't see the payoff for some of the decisions until way way later (assuming it gets that far). I don't think it's coincidence for example that we saw Lews very clearly tie his decision with wanting a better world for his kid, and then Ishy tempting Rand with his hypothetical child (and Min's viewing having him holding a child).
This reply isn't an attempt to chance your mind btw, just wanted to share a different opinion.
On another note, I just noticed that Ishy was wearing LTT's gold ring.
RE: WOT on Prime Episode 8 - SPOILERS - Jay Carpenter - 12-25-2021
(12-24-2021, 09:59 PM)Thalia Wrote: On another note, I just noticed that Ishy was wearing LTT's gold ring.
Ishamael stole LTT"s ring?
That bitch!
RE: WOT on Prime Episode 8 - SPOILERS - Mikhail - 12-25-2021
https://www.cbr.com/wheel-of-time-rafe-judkins-interview/
Explains the status of Loial and Moiraine, as well as direction for season 2.
RE: WOT on Prime Episode 8 - SPOILERS - Jay Carpenter - 12-25-2021
(12-25-2021, 04:36 AM)Mikhail Wrote: https://www.cbr.com/wheel-of-time-rafe-judkins-interview/
Explains the status of Loial and Moiraine, as well as direction for season 2.
Good article. I saw Rafe talking about needing to give Rosamund and Daniel something to do for season 2 in the behind the scenes