Of gods and men

[Jaxen Marveet]

This is so genius, there is some room to give Mickey V a little bit of the credit for fleshing it out. *bows. Well done Mickey V.



For the background information:

In the context of Norse gods being "human," it is known that Loki was not human or perhaps half-human. He was the child of the race of Jotunn. The were a race of giants from the world Jötunheimr, one of the nine worlds of Norse cosmology, all of which are connected by a great tree. The rainbow bridge, Bifröst, is guarded by a god called Heimdallr, a reknown warrior, wise protector, and keeper of a legendary golden horn called Gjallarhorn. Legend says this horn will be blown at the onset of Ragnarök by Heimdallr himself. However, legend also says that Loki, being the one who brings about Ragnarök, and Heimdallar deliver one another mortal wounds, and they each die at the others' hand during this world-ending war.

Loki was originally not of the Asgard world, but rather arrived there to be raised in Odin's hall by an adopted family as a child. His homeworld was said to be inhabited by non-human creatures described as blood-thirsty man-eaters and wielders of dark magic. They are described as both hideous and beautiful in appearance, but with general overall humanoid shape. Odin was said to have gone to them to seek ancient knowledge. Overall, the relationship between the gods and the Jotunn was complex and embedded with violence. It was with this nature, Loki was raised among his adopted family of gods.

The final betrayal of his family was in engineering the death of Baldr, one of Odin's sons. For this, he was punished &/or banished. He was bound and a venemous snake was fastened over his face and from it dripped poison, tended only by his wife, who accompanyed him to this prison.

Legend says that when Loki escapes his prison, he was responsible for the onset of Ragnarök.



Now for the Wheel of Time version:

For reasons unknown to us, a child was born in a dimension of those evil son of a bitches known as the Finn. Long long ago they could be reached by the Tower of Ghenjei or the twisted redstone door ter'angreal in the Stone of Tear or Rhuidean. Seeking knowledge, a channeler, likely Odin as he was known to have dealings with the race, returned from the world of the Finns with this child -- whom he would adopt and call Loki.

Yours truly was raised by "good people" but he was a bastard just like the Finns from his homeworld. After he orchestrated that little accident that got Baldr killed, Odin decided to banish him back to the dimension he originally came from, which was about the only thing that could really punish Loki.

He was sent back to the world of the Aelfinns along with his wife, and stayed there for hundreds of years as a prisoner to those Snakes, where they constantly tortured him, feeding off whatever emotional, experiencial high they get off human emotion. Likely the presence of his wife watching him suffer added a nice little cherry on top.

But Loki doesn't die there. Eventually, he escapes (or was set free on the promise of handing over a few dozen badass channelers in his place for their 'food') and returns to our world pretty bloody pissed off to fight the gods he once lived with. He was outright aided by the Finns themselves, probably in the form of a weapon, as legend says. He instigated Ragnarök (the really big war of their Age where the gods got their asses handed to them) and died fighting the heroic blower of the Horn of Valere that everybody fucking loved, Heimdallr, but not before dealing that dick a mortal wound himself.

This is why Loki hates snakes. Fucking snakes, with hatred blending with fear. This is also why he's a dick. I mean, he killed the guy that was their Age's version of the beloved Mat. He sold out his adopted family to the Finns for food, but that's a reasonable enough revenge. His soul's connection to finnland is also why he is such a successful and cunning trickster. He kind of is one of them. And should we ever encounter them in the future, oh the fun that shall be had. The prodigal son returns.

[Nick Trano]

So... Seth and Hood and Rune and the rest of the Atharim really need to get on hunting Jaxen. Because Jaxen is, like, REALLY evil. Alright Jaxen, now I have a great evil for each character to hunt!


Edited by Nick Trano, Oct 10 2013, 09:06 PM.

[Thalia]

Finn aren't evil, they just aren't human. Not that that should dissuade you, the guy did break into your super secret HQ AND dropped off your radar afterwards. Plus, any guy who keep 22k gold TP in his bathrooms is kinda suspicious if you ask me.

So 5th Age Loki was kinda like a faerie changeling child, although do you mean he was actually Finn (and just looked human) or he was a human child born in the Finn world? (Just wondering if you're going to play on the iron, fire music thing)

And I wouldn't say Norse Loki was an intentional bastard - not initially anyway. He causes the gods trouble, but he also gets them out of it. It's only after he kills Balder that Ragnarok is set in motion, and even that was mischief gone awry. It was the snake punishment that really catalysed Loki as cruel and "evil".

/ramble. Damn. I really need to get to work.

[Jaxen Marveet]

Was he actually half-Finn or a human child born on a Finn world?

Most likely he a human child born on the Finn world. Why, nobody knows. For all we know there is a race of humans that inhabit the Finn realms. *shrug. That he came from such a place would have attributed to the legend of being half-race himself.

I thought about the idea of half-Finn by blood. That one sounds -- awesome, actually -- but more outlandish. And you know me, i'm nothing if not subtle. *grin.

Or there could be a third alternative. That it's neither about being 'human' or 'half-finn' but he's some other race altogether. If there are humans that inhabit the finn realms, they would probably be something not quite like earth humans. Either some sort of twist of the Pattern keeps them connected to the Finns, kind of like a Finnish Aes Sedai-warder bond. Or they were the descendants of all 'earth humans' kept on world to serve as 'emo-food sources', like cattle that became too numerous to stock, so they are allowed to graze freely. We know so little about Finns. . . .

You know how Myrddraal are the throwbacks to the the trolloc's human stock. We know there are 'male' and 'female' Finn, but we don't know whether they live and breed as regular species. Perhaps they are spontaneously born among whatever "human" species inhabits their planet. And such Finn-babies are collected by the rest of their powerful kind. Or vice versa. Every once in a while the Finn race produces a 'throwback' to some original blend which is born as a 'human' child.

I like the idea of having a blood and soul connection to the Finns. But either way, that's where 5th Age Loki came from.

By Finnish bastard characteristics, no I wasn't trying to imply he was evil from the beginning. More of ornery, selfish, and arrogant bastardism. He got the norse gods in trouble a lot, and he got them out of trouble, true. But he only "saved" things to avoid his own threatened demise, not from the goodness of his heart. However, I do think that he did have friends and allies. He was capable of good deeds, but the tales of his tricks were the ones to survive the legends.

Indeed, the death of Baldr and the snake punishment finally catalyzed ornery bastard to turn into evil bastard out for revenge. Interestingly, he used the Finns to get it. *grin.

[Nick Trano]

He killed a Mat! He dies.

[Thalia]

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But he only "saved" things to avoid his own threatened demise, not from the goodness of his heart.

Hmm, I don’t know that I necessarily agree with that – though I mean for Norse Loki, not WoT Loki. He was utterly amoral, but I don’t think he was selfish - at least not in terms of his motives being his own gain. How many of his actions actually benefited him? I can’t think of any tricks where he originally stood to gain anything personally (maybe I’m wrong), unless you count the pleasure of the mischief itself. He certainly didn’t get any respect or power from it, and quite often his actions resulted in gains for the other gods, albeit usually after they got mad and demanded he fix his mistakes (although he didn’t always offer aid only to save his own skin – like the retrieval of Thor’s stolen hammer. Bet Marvel don’t use that one in their movies!).

But, point being, I don’t think he ever intended the consequences - good or bad – that resulted from his actions; his mischief sets off a chain reaction that he in turn reacts to. A selfish bastard wouldn’t have been so free with the rewards. Why didn’t he trick the dwarves into making weapons for himself instead of the others? If it was so freaking awesome, why didn’t he keep the eight-legged horse instead of giving it to Odin? Not that I’m suggesting he did either out of the goodness of his heart, I just think it’s representative of the chaos he embodies. Chaos doesn’t have purpose.

Loki was a wildcard. He acted outside the social conventions of his time - particularly but not limited to his gender ambiguity. Aside from the horse thing and cross-dressing, he’s supposed to have lived eight years as a human woman, right? Having regular human children in that time (at least he doesn’t deny the accusation). And a lot of his trickery is born out of the urge to defy the impossible (I bet you can’t build a wall in 6 months! Nothing can harm our beloved Balder! Everyone will cry for him, cos he’s so awesome! etc etc) rather than actual malicious intent. Like most of the chaos type deities, he’s the change that prevents stagnation.

That’s probably a very rosy Loki interpretation, but I love me a good anti-hero (or a redeemable villain) so that totally warps my opinion *grin*

Back to 5th Age Loki, I think that’s pretty much awesome.

[Nick Trano]

Evil! Kill!

[Ascendancy]

Sounds like it's a fundamental question of whether or not Loki is a villain or an anti-hero.

[Jaxen Marveet]

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Not that I’m suggesting he did either out of the goodness of his heart, I just think it’s representative of the chaos he embodies. Chaos doesn’t have purpose.

I don't interpret Loki to be a traditional chaos god. The word itself is not associated with him, rather he is referenced as a 'trickster god'. Maybe there are associations with chaos I've missed-- Mickey?

I interpret the root source of his mischief to stem from an innate ornery/arrogant streak. However, the events of his life as Loki took hold. There was some psychological impact of his adoption. In time, while never outright harming his brethren, he was bitter toward them. See the story about getting his lips sewn shut by the gods who laugh and jest. He stalks out of sight and quickly ripped the thread away. It sounds like he had a lot of [dramatic pause for effect] pain to deal with.

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And a lot of his trickery is born out of the urge to defy the impossible.

THAT is hitting the nail on the head. Nicely done, Thal. Perhaps this is the faint line that differentiates chaos god from trickster god, but Loki does things for a reason. For instance, defying authority, proving the impossible, or making a point. To me, a chaos god enjoys sewing discord for the sole purpose of watching it unfold. Loki has reasons, some rooted in his emo-streak, others from arrogance -- "Of course Baldr can die! Let me prove it!"

Although

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<del>Like most of the chaos type deities, he’s the change that prevents stagnation.</del>

- that sounds way too academic for this discussion.

The only thing between a villain and an anti-hero is the choices he makes. They have the same personality, many of the same flaws, and are both talented. However the anti-hero ends up making his choices for the greater good but sees those come about in his own, non-traditional way. The villain does not, obviously. In the end, he serves his own goals. Now imagine if the anti-hero was bitter toward his adopted family that shunned him all the time. He could turn into the villain pretty easily. The villain, meanwhile, might have been the hero all along. At the beginning of 'the story' the villain usually is the hero, after all.

My point is, 5th Age Loki ended up turning against the gods that raised him. It might be so simple to say that if the gods were the 'good guys' then he was a villain. If the gods were the 'bad guys' then he was an anti-hero fighting against them. However, Loki did not do what he did to serve some greater purpose beyond himself. Therefore, I find it hard to think he was an anti-hero, because he served his own agenda.

2nd Age Loki. *grin. Now, throw the temptation of the Dark One in the mix and things get complicated. Bad childhood, perhaps the baby brother living in the shadow of more talented siblings, or the pressure of being the 'best servant of all servants' got to him. I can easily see him turning Forsaken. Not necessarily because he wants to rule the world, but simply to advance his own agenda -- such as being the greatest musician in the world perhaps *grin? *shrug? Loki wasn't the most masculine dude in the mix. And Jaxen is a HELL of a dancer. Just sayin'

Which brings us back to 7th/1st Age Loki. He has the potential to go either way. But like his other lives, it will be his experiences that shape whether or not he turns into the non-traditional anti-hero begrudgingly helping others, or into the villain with only his own agenda in mind.

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That’s probably a very rosy Loki interpretation, but I love me a good anti-hero (or a redeemable villain) so that totally warps my opinion *grin*

Just admit it, Thal. My characters are irresistible.


Edited by Jaxen Marveet, Oct 21 2013, 06:51 AM.

[Thalia]

I do personally think Loki falls under ‘chaos’ – but that’s a good point. Trickery/mischief might be an aspect of chaos (insomuch as chaos is a result) but they aren’t the same thing. I’m also probably erroneously using the word chaos as synonymous with change.

I don’t think Loki was bitter towards the other gods pre-snake torture, but he did speak blunt and hurtful truths against all custom, tradition and honour, which probably did little to foster positive relationships. He has plenty of reason to be emo, they’re never really very nice to him. Is it the gods who sew his lips shut though, or one of the dwarves he tricked? (he’d offered his head in the wager, then when he lost pointed out his neck was not part of the bargain, so they sewed his mouth closed to quite literally shut him up. Or something like that).

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However, Loki did not do what he did to serve some greater purpose beyond himself. Therefore, I find it hard to think he was an anti-hero, because he served his own agenda.

Okay. So what was his agenda?

The other gods continually benefited from Loki’s mischief. They got the wall around Asgard, for free, plus the various weapons and cool stuff. Things turn out great for the other gods, but Loki always gets punished for his misdemeanour. I think that makes him a pretty rubbish villain – particularly if a villain’s goal is purely selfish and centred on self-preservation. Surely the first rule of villainy is to NOT get caught. He was also supposedly Odin’s blood-brother – and presumably the all-father had a reason to invite a jotun into the family in the first place. Guy was a seer, right? Ragnarok was inevitable, and Baldur’s death was one of the signs of its coming. Irrespective of Loki, Baldur was going to die and Ragnarok was going to end the reign of the gods. So if you’re Odin, what do you do about it?

Loki indirectly kills Baldur, then prevents Hel from allowing him to return by shifting into the only being who refuses to shed a tear; he’s pretty much the only god who could have hoped to accomplish either feat. Fastforward to Ragnorak, and all the gods are slaughtered. Except Baldur, who’s immune in Hel. And once it’s over, he’s released. What better god to bless the new world than him? And the only reason he survived at all, was Loki.

So yeah, I think you can see Loki as an anti-hero. He did the dirty-work, maybe even at Odin’s behest*. And he suffered for it, to the point that it destroyed him and he ended up fighting against his brethren. Before he’s imprisoned, he delivers a final set of home truths to the others. He exposes their secrets and hypocrisies and… uh… sorry to get too academic again, but it’s symbolic of their crumbling society. It was time for it to end, and Loki was the catalyst. He destroyed the world, but he also laid the seeds for the new.

*He goes from cutting off hair and tying a goat’s beard to his balls to make funny, to murder. It’s the first time his mischief has been harmful – so why? Maybe he didn’t intend murder and was just making a point that had kinda horrific consequences - he did use a blind god, after all. Maybe he was jealous, malicious and totally embittered by that point and did act from spite. But I think that all his previous trickeries and their ultimately beneficial outcomes set a precedent. He knew what he was doing. And so did Odin.

What did Odin say to his dead son on the funeral pyre? Why did Sigyn stay so utterly devoted to a man like Loki? It was a conspiracy I tell you!

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Just admit it, Thal. My characters are irresistible.

Pft.