WoT on Prime episode 5 SPOILERS

[Mikhail]

In delaying it, and if they play it right, his discovering he’s a channeler could potentially be very devastating for him; not because of the threat of madness, but because it’s the nail in the coffin: he’s never going home.

I think this is very subtle and a deft analysis. Because it DOES track with the other characters in the book. Egwene wanted to leave because she wanted adventure and right away learned she could channler. Old life done. Mat did too, to a lesser extent, and then found the dagger. Ditto. Perrin was duty driven like Rand but the wolf brother was soon after Shadar Logoth and his old life was over. Nynaeve went to bring the others home and suddenly learned she could channel (but was blocked) and that if egwene didnt learn, she would die.

Rand was the only one who still wanted his old life and at least potentially had that possibility- we saw in a flicker world that he even lived it out until Egwene died of a wasting sickness. All the times he channeled it was unknown to him. Tam's fever dreams shook him to his core, but none of that meant that he wasn't Tam's son. When Lan first heard, he told Rand that in the borderlands, whoever "has the raising of a child" is the father, end of story. So even that didn't mean his old life wasn't possible.

Everythign we've seen of Rand in the series tracks. The only issue (and given that they gave Perrin a wife to kill specifically because they wanted to make his internal struggle obvious) is that the clues are subtle enough that they could *almost* be imagine. That we are reading too much into it because we are searching for those elements that show a depth that is not very clear.

But, on the other hand, the fact of the Perrin addition is an indicator that they know internal stuff needs to be more visible and they have been playing their cards close to their vest, that very soon we will see all this bubble to the surface. And by "soon",  let me be frank- if it doesn't start in episode 6, I will go ahead and say that I think they pulled a Jordan-shara situation and left it to the last minute and so didnt earn it. You can't do character development at the last minute. 

Obvious example is Ingtar. The clues to his DF status were liberally sprinkled and- even during reading- they were noticeable, not necessarily as clues OF THAT, but that he was a man of depth, bemoaning the loss of humankind, and for whom the search for the horn was becoming an obsession. Loial and Perrin even commented/noticed it more than once. When we learned the truth, all the pieces fell into place and it was a beautiful "blacksmith's puzzle" of clues that suddenly fit. 

Think of how that would have looked to have Ingtar's clues be much more subtle to the point that no one noticed or batted an eye or could almost be imagined. Then him suddenly being revealed in a way to make him a sympathetic dark friend would have felt forced, unearned. Because that was the goal. To show a good man who, for reasons that sort of made sense, had made bad choices and was trying to figure out how to work his way clear. There is a clear character arc.

Rand's arc is EXACTLY as you describe. But it's only hinted at in the series. Character arcs don't happen at the end. They start at the beginning (thats why everyone else go theirs in the 1st 3 episodes). Rand's is still beneath the surface.

I am torn because I believe the bulk of this should begin in this episode. At least something to make it clear what his story is (and it is NOT being defined by his relationship to egwene- that is merely an symptom it), And that this episode should make clear the ideas of the dragon and of male channelers. And knowing that Brandon said this was his favorite episode- and that this episode is a new version of the chapter in book 2 where Moiraine and Siuan secretly met and we learned how they were all tied together in this- well, I feel like I am investing too much expectation into it. That it will need to be a load-bearing post of an episode. 

But frankly, it should be. The way the season has been designed, the heavy lifting will need to be in the next (and final) 3 episodes. 

Do I think they can do it? I suppose I will say I am hopeful. I haven't been disappointed yet despite a few missteps. They seem to have an idea of what they want and are willing to take the time to focus on what needs to be focused on, to build carefully. So...I am hopeful.

Because your analysis is spot on. That is EXACTLY Rand's journey in the 1st book, his arc. And whatever the changes to the story, the characters need to be clear and stay the same. 

(and now who's rambling?)

[Thalia]

The changes to Mat really strengthens his motivations imo (as well as making him more likable early on). Even after Shadar Logoth show-Mat would have 100% still gone home if Rand hadn't been so stubbornly determined to find Egwene, and when the boys argue in Breen Springs he pretty much intends to steal the Aiel's gem and do exactly that. He has a shitty life but also people to protect, and that's an admirable quality that's missing from early book-Mat. It's not until the holes in show-Mat's memory that it becomes impossible for him. He can't know if he's a threat to his sisters now.

Changing his sisters to being little and Else Grinwell to be a child was very deftly done. It works so much better.

I agree with everything you've said. Ep6 has a lot riding on its shoulders.

I think the clues for Rand's struggles are subtle through necessity. Until he meets his goal (finding Egwene) he doesn't have to address them (because things might still work out, this adventure might soon be over) and neither does he have anyone to confide in anyway. We do see him try, but there are always bigger things going on.

Completely agree that a focus on Rand has to happen in ep6 else they have potentially messed up. The dragon reveal won't work without the emotion behind it imo. But I think rather than the focus being on Rand's 'special thing' that puts him in the running for the dragon, episode 6 has to convince the viewer that they actually don't want it to be Rand because it would be too awful. We need to feel empathy for his situation, and I hope the show achieves that. I'm not sure that's the angle they'll go for though.

Rand's arc is EXACTLY as you describe. But it's only hinted at in the novels. Character arcs don't happen at the end. They start at the beginning (thats why everyone else go theirs in the 1st 3 episodes). Rand's is still beneath the surface.

That's what I was trying to get at about Mat. His character work is all front end loaded of necessity, as not a lot can happen now until he's healed from the dagger (though I'm presuming here that it doesn't happen this season). His last important episode was ep4 and the Grinwells. His only function now may well be as a decoy. 

With Rand that quiet spot is in the beginning, and now it should all start ramping up and making sense until it builds up to the dragon reveal. Literally the opposite curve to Mat's. Being stubborn and resistant to change is part of that arc. It feels slow because we know what's coming. It stands out because it's running at a different pace to everyone else.

Rand won't be defined by Egwene but I do think they will use their relationship as a catalyst for him, and possibly as a vehicle/symbol for expressing what he fears losing (and what it is he wants). That's why I think his reunion with her should come before his discovering he's a channeler, personally. It changes the tone. Not that I think it would hurt to drop a few more hints to viewers though. That door bash was a long time ago now, and there's a difference between what the characters know about themselves and the clues we need as an audience to make it all look tightly woven and inevitable in hindsight.

Because you're right on the money, none of that works if you can't look back and see all the pieces that suddenly make sense. In theory it's the Tam reveal that's the piece which puts everything into context (that Rand's identity has been suffering at all). But if it fails it will look like Rand has been quashed as a character just so the show can jump up and yell surprise.

I hope we will see Lan step up and take Rand underwing by the time we get to Fal Dara, and I also hope they keep the scene you mentioned. I'm sure they'll do something about the heron blade then too. It might be another way the Stepin story works; to enforce that theme of brotherhood. It'll feel even more wholesome now because we have some idea of what it will mean to Lan.

Suian and Moiraine's scenes will be to push the core plot forward I think, revealing more about the dragon prophecy and increasing our awareness of Moiraine's personal stakes etc. I bet we'll begin to feel the Tower's fractures too, as well as a bigger glimpse into how weak they actually are right now. I assume it will contain the building blocks for the Eye (well it kinda has to).

I think they will use Logain to talk about how horrendous a male dragon would be as a prospect, show relief that he was false, and discuss who Moiraine thinks it might be (one of the girls; more relief). At this point the viewer will be actively encouraged to consider the prospect of a male dragon because of Mat, assuming Moiraine does not yet know the suspicion because the E5 intend to protect each other.

If they do then have Rand discover he's a channeler, and Moiraine suddenly has five prospects again just when she thought she'd narrowed it down, I guess that could work quite well as an end point.

But there's a lot to fit in.

Perrin's got to face the repercussions of the wolves and the prospect of becoming some kind of shadowspawn (I wonder if they are going to try and tie this into his leg wound, and it won't be until season 2 and Elyas that we'll finally know he's a wolfbrother). If that's the case he's another one the E5 will want to protect from the Aes Sedai. They could probably keep that fairly low key for now though.

I think Egwene will return Valda's rings to the Tower. I'm curious where they are going with that. He's murdering Aes Sedai and the Tower has to react, but it's swerving too much from the plot to dwell on right now surely. Valda is a curious one. He seems to be mixed with Asunawa and Byar but there's got to be a reason he's killing Aes Sedai (his character would have worked without that quirk). I originally wondered if they were going to tie it in with the Aes Sedai deaths in New Spring (the original searchers for the dragon set by the Amyrlin before Suian and murdered by the Black Ajah) but most of the rings look like they're Red so it doesn't work.

In any case, if they can get a well paced mix of scenes that drive the plot forward and a focus on Rand's conflicts I think it'll work out. I'm not sure when they'll introduce the channeling (soon hopefully), but I think ep7 will be the dragon reveal, leaving 8 for the showdown but also some lead-in to plots that will propel us into season 2 (like the dagger theft).

I enjoy reading your thoughts, rambling or not, you know how much I love discussing stuff like this

[Mikhail]

Pretty much completely agree with this. I LOVE the idea that the more we find out about Rand, what it costs him- because TRULY he is the one who wanted to stay home- though show Mat has that too- loving show Mat better than book Mat- the more we DONT want it to be him. That's a brilliant way to view it. And I really hope we see things play out this way as it will be emotionally satisfying and a punch to the gut. And we are wanting to have FEELS in this show. Because that's why we love it. Not all the magic and the world building, as great as that is. The struggle of these people. Rand's arc is one of the major ones and one I felt. He went from not wanting to be the Dragon to accepting it and trying to be iron. Then to steel and then Cuendillar. He got harder and harder and very nearly shattered.

His conversation with Nynaeve that he wasn't saving anything for the "climb back down the mountain" was telling. He was planning on dying and was willing to sacrifice his humanity. It was beautiful and heartbreaking because we remembered that all he ever wanted had been to stay home and live on his farm and be happy and content. And he couldn't.

Can you tell how much I love him? I love all of them, but Rand will always be at the front for me, with Nynaeve nearly equal.

For the rest, yeah. The way you lay it out makes sense. Hopefully, the next episode will set the stakes and starting ramping up the emotion. As long as we see some real characterization from Rand (because it's true, he's had no need to confront his fears or deal with the loss of his future- he may even believe the Dragon might be Mat too- or at least that it's not him) I think this will work. The beginning of loss has to be felt. Though truthfully, neither he nor Egwene have seemed to indicate they have moved on from each other, that their feelings are changing. And we've seen no basis FOR those feelings to change, so it can't just show up. But maybe the seeds....

With that layout, though...it can be done. Hopefully, they picked your brain before planning this out. ;-) Cuz that's how I want to see it.

[Thalia]

I think they’ve shown quite a deft and nuanced handling of character so far, definitely in the more recent episodes, so I feel like they are trying to make character and emotion a priority in the telling. They have to when they are choosing to keep only the broad strokes of the story. Whether you like the changes to Mat and Perrin’s backstories or not aside, both do make their stories more emotive for tv. I can’t see that they’d treat Rand any differently, so I’m hopeful that they will want an emotional core to the big reveal. And like Nox pointed out, ultimately if someone really wants to know who the dragon is they can google it in less than thirty seconds. But they can’t google how it’s going to make them feel to see it play out like an inevitable tragedy.

How they’ll do it, and how successful it will be, I guess we’ll see. I’m excited but nervous too.

Rand’s story is a poignant and very sad one. I hope to see them do it justice.

They do both seem to feel strongly about each other still. We know Egwene is definitely still thinking about Rand, and about finding him, but that’s a good thing as far as the show is concerned. We already know what Egwene wants (far more clearly than we know what Rand wants right now) and it’s that she wants more. She loves Rand, but it doesn’t mean she’ll settle for being the “little wife,” or indeed has any intention of compromising on her dreams. But if she was giving off vibes of actually having moved on already it makes Rand’s efforts look trite and kinda dumb, like a love-sick puppy. He’s walked hundreds of miles to find her; it’s been his entire purpose. It would also make her look incredibly callous. In the show their relationship is already intimate so it’s not just two people who always thought they would marry but were never really together. I think that’s why they skipped her flirting with Aram or Perrin’s annoyance about it when she “belongs” with Rand.

If you don’t know the story, you would probably be rooting for the scenario in which their adventures will bring them closer together. Pretty much the last time we saw them together, in Shadar Logoth, they held each other's hands and looked out over the dead city together. We know there’s unresolved issues but it doesn’t seem impossible they could resolve it right now. The obstacle, that Wisdoms don’t marry, is actually gone. They could have a future as Aes Sedai and Warder; we’ve literally just had two episodes that make it clear they could be that and still have both a physical and emotional relationship. 

I think after the initial flush of reunion though, they are going to realise once again that they just don’t want the same things. You can love someone dearly, but love just isn’t enough on its own. 

Rand and Egwene never had this opportunity in the books, and they were never as serious either. I wonder at what point they’ll make it clear they can’t continue; whether it will be a clean break, or if they will just grow apart like the books. My guess is the former. For all we know, maybe Rand will be the one to make the decision once he knows what and who he is.

By the way, I was super impressed with how they showed off Egwene’s ingenuity and strength in the scene with Perrin and Valda. First of all that when she realises begging will get her nowhere (and is possibly what Valda wants from her) she switches to defiance, secondly that she then tries to trap Valda by his own faith and logic, and thirdly the way she actually uses the knowledge Valda has just given her about Aes Sedai hand motions being a crutch to engineer their escape. She uses a hand motion for the fireball to make sure he’s aware it’s coming and is distracted, but when she burns Perrin’s restraints she just concentrates.

I know you’ve really enjoyed her portrayal so far, but this was the first time I’ve really liked her.